Welcome CWR readers. Please check out more that I have written on this subject here.
Of course Lia Thomas won the 500 freestyle last night at the NCAA swim/dive championships. By a few seconds without, as some observers note, even trying very hard. Video indicates that while the women were using both arms and legs, Thomas was just cruising with his arms.
(A response said something to the effect of…don’t call it cheating…it’s just a difference between the way men and women swim…Um….I don’t think that’s the defense you think it is, chum.)
There’s more coming over the next couple of days, I believe. The 100 & 200 freestyle races.
I want to make something very clear, and make it short, so perhaps this can be a post you can easily pass on.
Lia Thomas is a male human being.
Here on the block: A man in a woman’s bathing suit.
The only physical modification he has made is to suppress testosterone production. Even so, his testosterone levels are higher than any woman would be allowed to have in competition. Meaning, it’s of course much higher than a woman’s testosterone level, and female athletes’ testosterone levels are monitored to make sure they are not doping because, well…testosterone gives an advantage.
So. Mildly suppressed testosterone levels.
That means:
Lia Thomas is not taking cross-sex hormones (estrogen/progesterone).
Lia Thomas has not had any surgery.
Lia Thomas has a penis and testicles.
Lia Thomas is on a women’s swim team and placing first over women.
So: a male with mildly suppressed testosterone can claim the identity of woman? He can put on a woman’s bathing suit and join the woman’s team?
In short: can a fully biological intact male claim female identity and, as a consequence, claim female spaces?
Why?
As I have said repeatedly – just answer the question.
More coming in a bit. I just wanted to offer a short, simple post that would be easy for people to pass on.
Charlotte was Both 
Absolutely right, Amy.
On one hand, why indeed.
On the other, it might be important to look at the motivation of school sports. Do trans people with physical advantages have anything real to gain by competing–I mean are trophies meaningful? Or do they have any place at all in the firmament of competition, team or individual?
On the other hand, in all sorts of sports, there is the very occasional physically gifted athlete who absolutely dominates the competition. Should Kareen Abdul Jabbar been sent to college instead of high school? A 250-lb football player dominating 170-lb peers–should he be barred from high school?
I think I’d be more interested to hear what Lia Thomas’ competitors think. I also doubt Lia accepts the male pronouns, but I could be wrong. I think it’s a matter of courtesy (a virtue we might ask of Lia) to use her, ver, or whatever has been requested here. Being petty about such labels only reinforces the bullying behavior much less physically gifted LGBTQ people suffer in society–the ones who don’t get sports headlines.
https://fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/
An interesting take on pronouns. When I’m a hurry and rushing through a doorway, I have to adjust my pace if there’s someone for whom I should open the door. Selfishly, that disrupts my moment. But it’s usually a good thing to offer a courtesy, something that used to be common, but today seems partly abandoned by many who wear the mantle of “conservative.” Being rude in these ways strikes me as a modernism, and not a good development. Maybe I need to slow down a bit in my life and think for a bit.
I observe that using a pronoun in reference to a person means one is talking or writing about them. Sometimes that’s not a good thing–gossip, detraction, etc.. When a trans person is a friend, most people want that mutual regard. So the “burden” of a pronoun isn’t really that. And if not a friend, why not just not write or talk about them?
The pronoun clouds the conversation and makes it difficult to talk about the physical realities of what’s going on.
I highly recommend looking through this blog: Amy has explained her stance on it pretty well in past posts. Agree or disagree if you like, but please take a moment to understand the argument first.
How very odd that you suggest people just shut up writing or speaking about people that are not personal friends.
It take real, um, “guts” to claim you are a woman when, well, you’re standing there…, well, … you get where I’m going.
The “empowerment” of this guy is completely bonkers and, frankly, evil. Part of me thinks the Tyranny of Trans will endure for quite some time, but sometimes I think it might well fall apart quite quickly. So much depends on how ordinary people respond to it.
C’mon Carl. Be kind.
Or, this is just one college person who genuinely wants to continue competing as they did on the men’s team the prior three years. It is likely that medical treatments reduced strength to the point where a spot on the men’s team was out of reach.
To label this “evil” is a caricature. At worst, it is misguided. Real athletes play for the competition, not the awards, which they know will come when well-earned. Modern culture at the moment lacks the maturity and insight to lifts trans persons out of the experience of bullying and intimidation. At worst, this competition was a form of reverse bullying–the women in this competition were buried in the way that many trans people are in school settings. A rather crude way of paying it forward, but that’s what American culture tends to celebrate in the era of 45.
Is Lia Thomas a woman?
That’s the basic question, as Amy says.
Answer that question, Todd.
Is Lia Thomas a woman?
If so, what makes her so?
Lay it out for us.
As far as I can see, Lia Thomas presents as a trans person. In the past, they competed as a man in intercollegiate sports. I am aware that for a minority of human beings the biology of sex and gender isn’t always one or the other. That can be complicated by life experiences. And yes, people, especially young people, can be led astray. Outside of wealthy celebrities in their bubbles, it’s not likely that people intentionally endure surgeries, drug regimens, physical pain, and bullying just to win a little trophy.
As a person with many years experience of working with young adults, I’m deeply disinclined to attach labels to what is going on here. Most of us commenting are older adults, and not in a position to say too much in clearly unequal relationships. I’m far more interested in what Lia’s peers and teammates have to say.
“Evil” suggests an intentional malice to elevate a trans person at the cost of women and the appearance of a fair competition. Catechism 2478 suggests I consider the best case scenario: the NCAA is ill-equipped to allow trans persons to compete in their own category, or to find a way for them to continue athletic endeavors. I suspect that various players in this episode have lawyered up in advance of the end game, so who knows?
In many sports, there are fair ways to allow men, women, and trans persons to compete directly against each other. Maybe that suggests a better, fairer future heading forward.
Todd:
“As far as I can see, Lia Thomas presents as a trans person.”
Sorry. Not true at all. You need to do a lot more research.
Lia Thomas said in his SI interview:
“I’m a woman, so I belong on the women’s team”
So is he correct? He has slightly decreased levels of testosterone, a penis and testicles.
*Is he a woman?*
He DOES NOT “present as a trans person” – he claims to BE A WOMAN. And thereby claims a spot in women’s spaces.
https://www.outkick.com/i-am-a-woman-lia-thomas-wants-spot-on-2024-olympic-womens-swim-team/
Furthermore – if Lia Thomas merely “presents as a trans person” and not as a woman – WHY NOT JUST COMPETE ON THE MEN’S TEAM?
Stop obfuscating. Address the question.
Lia Thomas says he’s a woman. There’s a quote right there.
*Is he?” Should a male person, born male – unambiguously male – be accepted and treated as a woman because he says he is?
Why should women have to pay the price to accomodate a man who makes a choice?
Admittedly, I do not follow mainstream news, so this blog was the first place I read of this person. The news outlets I read after coming here seemed to identify Lia Thomas as trans. Admittedly also, that can mean a lot of different things. It depends on the person.
Biologically, I know that some human beings are born with both sets of organs, so the possession of a penis means the person is either a biological male or hermaphroditic.
As an athletic thing, I’m a skeptic on a person who went through puberty as a male competing against women.
As a political thing, I’m a skeptic on older adults commenting on college-age persons. Especially when words like “evil” are bandied about. It’s bad form.
Is Lia Thomas a woman? I don’t know the person. I don’t know the circumstances. If I knew them, I would refer to the person the way they wanted to be addressed. That is basic courtesy. As for the biological reality, I know that many persons have a sense of self different from the surface reality of biology. I know that fused twins contain two sets of DNA, and that it is possible for different organs to have different genetic profiles. Is this more common than we think? Early pregnancy is not a well-explored aspect of biology. I’m inclined to go Catechism 2478 on things like this, barring some breakthrough in science or personal knowledge I’m not likely to get.
There’s not a moral problem with a stance like that. Sorry. No gotcha.
To label this “evil” is a caricature.
No, it isn’t. Note what I said: The “empowerment” is evil; I make no judgment on Mr. Thomas’s motivations (as I don’t know them), but on the objective nature of his actions and (more importantly, in some ways) the manner in which the NCAA, the MSM, ESPN, etc. have supported, cheered, and promoted this insanity.
Mr. Thomas may well be “misguided”. Again, that’s not the point; we are all, at different times and ways, misguided. But that’s a distinct issue from promoting something as good (or ever wonderful and great) when it most definitely is damaging, disordered, and destructive.
Pope Francis says the same thing:
“the women in this competition were buried [sic?]in the way that many trans people are in school settings.”
As our mothers said, two wrongs don’t make a right. That eye for an eye sort of thing has been the basis of many a continuing war through the centuries– the ongoing conflicts in the Middle East, the troubles in Ireland with the IRA, and the Hatfields and Macoys all come to mind. It’s hardly thinking or “justice” that leads to peaceful co-existence.
I’m hardly affirming the stance. I’m just making a note of it.
There is winning. And then there is taking.
This is the latter.
Bodies compete–not “identities.”
The fact that this obvious lie got so far, tells me that we are very far away from a solution. I’m more of a pessimist than Carl.
Remember those edgy, morning-zoo, radio programs, where “everything goes”? They are insanely careful with their Lia Thomson jokes, and “her” pronouns…..at least in the NYC area. Sports talk radio doesn’t seem to be taking any dissenting calls.
Remember Howard Stern and the FCC and all of the free speech warrior rock stars on MTV….Frank Zappa before Congress?………Dee Snider? (Dee has more to lose now that he is a professional narrator….he was a low-level, glam rocker, and his activism was helping “Twisted Sister” sell more albums…..how ironic!)
Read this from Exulansic tonight.
“It is a radical attack on all of us, in other words, what has been going on. This is what we must do, however. We must speak the truth and we must root our language in nested definitions that are connected to reality. Women are adult female humans and there are no male women. Women are not anyone who looks like a woman. Women are women. It is the only way to stay sane.”
Lia Thomas wishes to dominate women and be provided a sanctioned way to expose his genitals in in the locker room. When swimmers complained to the coach about the latter, they were told to shut up about it. Penn Administration and the Philadelphia District Attorney have been contacted. But let’s all be courteous and kind to Lia.
If there is no proof of “expose,” this comment would be illustrative of the hatefulness of the political rhetoric on this episode. In looking at mainstream sports and commentary sites earlier today, I saw quite a bit of criticism of the NCAA and the unfairness of women competing with trans persons in this event, and generally. It came from athletes, liberal commentators, other trans persons, and yes, also from Fox News.
Yes, Seven, “all” is inclusive of you. If you have a news site on this “exposure” I missed, by all means give a link. Otherwise, you are ethically obliged to withdraw the comment and apologize for opining about something you just don’t know.
My mother used to say that if you can’t think of a kind word to say, then say nothing at all. It’s a lesson from a previous generation that clearly, while passe these modernist days, some people might benefit from learning.
Female teammates have complained about male genitalia exposure by Thomas. They were told to “suck it up.” Which is the consistent response to women faced with this intrusion.
https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/lia-thomas-teammate-situation-is-unfair-and-ncaa-is-discriminating-against-cisgender-women-locker-room-discomfort
And yet, it does not say Lia Thomas exposed herself. The article cites a “source.” I think we all know that it is possible to note secondary sexual characteristics through clothing, especially perhaps swimwear. I also read an article in which some or all of the person’s teammates supported her inclusion on the team, though that included competing in two relays.
It’s a tough issue all around. Many commentators known to be trans and/or liberals have come down hard on the NCAA for this unsporting situation. I lean to agreement. I draw the line at drawing a trans person as an exhibitionist. To quote our blog host here, “Prove it!” I repeat: it is unseemly, uncharitable, and possibly an occasion of detraction–serious sin.
Your lawyering on this is so over the top. You’re trying to make the one man in the woman’s locker room into a victim by wailing about Thomas not being an exhibitionist.
No one called him that. But you turned the undisputed fact that his genitals are frequently exposed before women into “how dare you call him an exhibitionist!”
They see his genitals–and it’s obvious that it’s not through clothing.
Women shouldn’t EVER have to put up with that in their own locker room. Especially from someone who is attracted to them. The male gaze issue I hear about so much is screamingly obvious here–and appalling. And yet, “suck it up” is the response.
On the other hand, I do find it amusing that there is one issue where the intersectional warriors will still go to the mat for a straight white guy.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10445679/Lia-Thomas-UPenn-teammate-says-trans-swimmer-doesnt-cover-genitals-locker-room.html
No, it’s not. I’m challenging you on Catechism 2478. I’m challenging other adults in this room to take care with unfounded assumptions about people much younger than they are, and clearly on unequal terms. It’s not about only being a victim or a predator. Really, there’s a lot of in-between on this.
Call Lia Thomas an unfair competitor against women, and not only would I agree but you would be in the same camp as many liberals.
So you have uncovered a bit of glimpsing from the Daily Mail. Good. I happen to think women or men, or especially boys and girls, should not have to put up with genitals from the any sex whether or not there is attraction involved. Usually it’s bullying–more common, and too often school administrations and teachers are complicit in it.
And yes, the “suck it up” line is tone deaf. Probably begging for a #metoo moment for UPenn. Hopefully they get it.